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General Ship Modeling
Discuss modeling techniques, experiences, and ship modeling in general.
Hosted by Todd Michalak
Build blog for Heller's HMS Victory
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, April 24, 2017 - 05:59 AM UTC
A small suggestion regarding the use of a needle to get the thread through holes:
Another option is to fold a thin copper wire,
push the copper wire through from the "other side",
folded end first, but not all the way through,
insert the thread in the fold of the copper wire and then pull the copper wire back to the "other side" again.
The double copper wire can be made thinner than a sewing needle, it depends on what copper wire you have access to.

Electrical cables from household appliances usually have thicker wires but broken head set cables from mobile phones or similar are thin and very useful.

The rope used for tightening dead eyes usually fill up the holes (more or less) on the dead eyes. Using a needle you get the thickness of the needle around the eye plus two times the thread.

Another possibility is to dip the end of the thread into a little cyanoacrylate glue, let harden and the gently sand it to a point that can be pushed through holes in dead eyes.
Use a long thread so that you can "service" a lot of dead eyes before you need to put a fine point to a new thread.

Shoemakers use a split hogs bristle and somehow roll and wax it to the sewing thread. It is apparently stiff enough to push through holes in the shoe leather. Saw it in a YouTube clip a few years ago ....

/ Robin

/ Robin
timmyp
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Posted: Monday, April 24, 2017 - 05:26 AM UTC
Managed to get started on making up the deadeyes for the upper shrouds on the mizzen mast. Going a bit slower than I had hoped for, but, taking my time and not rushing things, should give a better result!

So before I started cutting off the pairs of deadeyes, I ran into this little problem:



The problem being that there is the connecting pieces of plastic between the deadeyes, as well as a left-to-right connection. So instead of being able to just cut the deadeye pair from the sprue, it means taking out the small wire I was using as a spacer, cutting off the express plastic, making another (or, a second spacer) wire, cutting off the deadeyes from the sprue, cleaning up the deadeye, and getting ready to attach a thread to what will become the lower deadeye, which is what we see in this picture:



Not the best picture, but the thread is wrapped around the deadeye, with care being taken to try and get the start & stop point of the thread just underneath one of the eyes in the deadeye. There also seems to be a bit of a flange going around the deadeye, so that helps to align the thread. When wrapping the thread, I start right about underneath a single eye, then wrap the thread around about a third of the way, so I can cement the thread in place, let it dry, and then move on to the next third.

For the upper deadeye, here's the shroud getting wrapped around the deadeye. The shroud got started on the outside edge (like, the 3 o'clock position), then followed around in a clockwise direction, with the excess of the shroud hanging down (before I trimmed it):



As you can see, it took some specialized clamping tools to keep the deadeyes upright - here's a pic. In this pic, I haven't wrapped shroud around the deadeye yet.



Here's a picture of the knot that holds the thread between the deadeyes in place. I tied the knot 5 times; I guess it only needs to be tied 3 time or less. Also, I've shifted to using #70 drill bit to open the holes in the deadeyes. I might, on the next set of deadeyes, use a needle to help thread the string through the deadeyes.



And here's the final product:



The light colored thread is wrapped about 3 times around the shroud before I finished it with an overhand knot, and some cement.

So here's a question for everyone: I see mentions about people using "CA" glue. I thought this was an abbreviation for cyanoacrylate(?) glue, which, I believe, is the same thing as super glue. However, people talk about keeping their CA glue wet, or solvent, when it's not capped. So, is this CA the same stuff as super glue? And does it not dry as fast as regular super glue? And if it's not the usual kind of super glue sold in stores, what brand names/other names is this glue sold as?

Look forward to your replies! And thanks for taking a look - right now, I've got the other 3 lower deadeyes on the mizzen mast installed, and just waiting a bit for the glue (Testor's ) to get good and dry, before I try putting another deadeye/shroud combo in place. Wish me luck!!
timmyp
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Posted: Monday, April 17, 2017 - 01:50 AM UTC
Shrouds H6, take 2

Well, I finally got the second set of shrouds for the mizzenmast completed. It seems, though, once I started to cut the excess ratlines away, a lot of them weren't sticking to the shrouds, so I had to do them over and over and over.

Here's a couple of pictures of how I trimmed the ratlines. My big fear/problem was, in trimming the line, the ratline would come in-done from the force of my blade, so I was using one set of tweezers to hold things in place, another tweezer to put tension on the thread, and then slice through with a knife blade. Of course, this had its own dangers, in that if I didn't put the first tweezer exactly on the joint, I ran the risk of slicing through the shroud. And of course, I kept everything away from open flames!





Here's a close-up with some of the excess thread cut away:



After I removed the shroud from the frame, the part of the shrouds that would ultimately go around the mast, was separating from each other, so I tied a couple of knots around the shrouds to keep them together.



In preparing to put the deadeyes on, I spent some time yesterday cutting and bending some floral wire, to keep the spacing between upper and lower deadeyes the same. I only did the deadeyes for the mizzenmast. I also found, especially for the upper set of deadeyes, that it's best to use a #62 drill bit to open up any holes that were malformed.

And lastly, a note about the parts count. The picture below is what 221 "p" blocks look like; that's all of the remaining "p" blocks. These blocks aren't quite ready to go, I still have to cut the groove on each side so the attachment thread has a good place to get seated.

So here's a rough estimate of parts I've used, or will be used:

cannons - 612 parts
anchors - 9 parts
glass on the stern galleries - 15 parts
cannon port lids - 82 parts
hammock hangers - 74 parts
buckets - 21 parts
bow parts - 18 parts
"p" blocks - 221 + 41 + about 50 installed = 312 parts

Total = 1143 parts so far, not counting hull, decks, and other stuff. And that's out of a total of 2107 parts (as per Heller).



So as usual, thanks for taking a look. I'm really excited about getting the deadeyes installed, but this is going to be a busy week at work, so I may not get back to this until later this week, or the weekend. Besides, I've got to finish assembling the mizzen mast, so there's still a few intermediary steps to be done.

Cheers!!
timmyp
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Posted: Sunday, April 02, 2017 - 08:24 AM UTC
Oh boy, looky what the postman left on my doorstep!

timmyp
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Posted: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - 07:09 AM UTC
Well, I've re-strung those middle mizzen shrouds (H6, in Heller's terminology, and if my memory serves correctly!). So that puts me back to where I was about two or three weeks ago. And I can see I will have a similar problem as before: my bonding agent, for some reason, didn't adhere the ratline to the shroud, so I'll probably spending too much time fixing things there.

On a more positive note, I drilled out the holes on all the "p" blocks. I was doing that drilling with a pin vise, but after a while, my fingers would get all achey and crampy, and I said to myself, "there's got to be a faster way"...and there was! I was able to chuck the drill bit into a Dremel tool, and the drilling went faster. But I had already cut off a handful of the blocks from the sprue, so the difficulty there was keeping the drill bit perpendicular while a pair of tweezers held the block. So on about the last 60 or so blocks, I drilled out the holes while they were still on the sprue, thus eliminating my problem of perpendicularity of the drill holes.

Looking forward to getting those shrouds/ratlines finished, and continuing some assembly!
timmyp
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Posted: Saturday, March 25, 2017 - 07:38 AM UTC
I forgot to mention: last night, on the Smithsonian channel, there was a show about the Battle of Jutland. I missed the first bit of the show, but when I tuned in, it was showing a battleship or cruiser slowly rolling onto its side...and then, as soon as the stack got into the water, the exposed side of the hull just went "kablooey" when that cold water hit the boilers...lots of steam, smoke, and ship parts went flying.

Towards the end of the show, they talked about the politics/scandal/revising of recent history that Beatty instigated to make himself look good, and to have Jellicoe (Gellicoe?) look bad.
timmyp
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Posted: Saturday, March 25, 2017 - 07:31 AM UTC
Thanks Tim! The stuff we do to ourselves...

Here's my photo of what I torched:



So I've already re-strung the shrouds and one side of ratlines...waiting for the glue to dry, and to see what the glue didn't secure the first time around.

In the meanwhile, to keep myself going, just for fun, I rigged up a line to go through a couple of the pulleys:



TimReynaga
Staff MemberNews Writer
MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
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Posted: Saturday, March 25, 2017 - 05:26 AM UTC
Oh nooooooo!

Tim, I feel your pain! I did the same thing on my Pinta build a while back...


I was so mad at myself I had to take a break from the build and do something else for the afternoon! You will come back and make it work, I'm sure.

Aside from this hiccup, your Victory is looking fantastic!
timmyp
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Posted: Saturday, March 25, 2017 - 04:33 AM UTC
Outwitting myself, part...

So, hooda thunk that some cotton thread, soaked with dried liquid petrochemicals, would catch fire so easily? All I was trying to do, was to "sharpen up" the ends of the ratlines without causing further damage...until a section just lit up like a match. I should have stayed with plan A, which was to use a soldering iron to burn off the ends, but I decided to use a candle. What I really should have done was just a get new, sharp Xacto blade, and trim the edges.

So I tried to re-start the whole thing, but I found that I had cut the thread length about 4 inches too short for a new set of shrouds...so I'm gonna have my lunch, run the vacuum cleaner, and maybe try again. Otherwise, I'll let another week go by before I try anything again.

Aaaaarrrrrrgggggg!
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 11:45 PM UTC
UTC is always UTC (or GMT) and never changes.
CET is one hour eastwards (i.e. ahead of) UTC during normal (winter time).
United Kingdom switches to BST (British Summer Time) on the 27th of March (night between the coming Saturday and Sunday).
At the same time most of the other European countries switch from CET (Central European Time, UTC/GMT + 1 hour) to CEST (Central European Summer Time, UTC + 2) so we stay at one hour ahead of Britain the whole year since we switch at the same date. This makes it a easier for all kinds of communication, physical or electronic) inside Europe.

In the winter we are one hour ahead of UTC/GMT and in the summer we are two hours ahead, switch on March 27th and October 30th
/ Robin
timmyp
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 12:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Are you switching to daylight saving time this weekend?
Here in Sweden we will set the clocks one hour forward on the 26th of March ...

Good decision about saving work and being a little wasteful with cheap thread
Maybe you can even use the cut-offs for some other part of the rigging ....
/ Robin



Hey Robin,

Yeah, I can probably use some of those cut-offs/cast-offs for something. Here's a pic of the current pile:



I'm surprised you haven't moved your clocks forward...isn't CET currently ahead of UTC by 2 hours now?
timmyp
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Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 - 06:03 AM UTC
Still finishing those upper (or middle) shrouds & ratlines...seems that here and there, the nail polish didn't hold the ratline in place, so I'm re-doing selected lines again, one at a time. I think I did the last one last night, so it should be time, soon, to start putting some more elements of the mizzen mast together.

I was also reading Longridge's book, trying to get insight into how the the shrouds loop around the top deadeye (Roth's book indicates the port shrouds loop around the deadeye from the aft side to the forward side, with the starboard shrouds looping around from forward side to aft side. Or vice versa). He also mentioned that he left the attachment of the shrouds to the deadeyes as an event after placing the running rigging, as it would be easier to belay lines without having to go around the shrouds. Same idea with the stays. Seems to make sense, but knowing my luck, I'd manage to mess up the shrouds, and would have to spend twice as much time to fix things. Maybe I'll put the deadeyes in place, and loop the shrouds around them, but not finish them with glue, so I'll be able to move things around as/when required.

I've also come to the conclusion that I could use about 5 or 6 different workstations...one to store the model, a second to do painting, a third to cut & trim parts, a fourth to hold things that are glued & clamped, a fifth to hold the instructions (and re-write them!), and maybe the sixth to use as a general purpose desk! In the meantime, it's one desk, and one operation at a time...
timmyp
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Posted: Monday, March 13, 2017 - 04:39 AM UTC
Good afternoon Jan,

Thanks, as always, for your comments. It's not only some patience needed, but also a strong magnifying glass! Those instructions from Heller are just hard to read!

At least now, with our clocks set forward, we're only 4 hours behind GMT, and for some reason, it makes the math easier to do in my head!

Waiting here to get walloped with the big snow storm that is to come later today...
JJ1973
#345
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Posted: Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 04:49 PM UTC
Hi Tim,

your patience with all your rigging- and line-work all around the masts continues to amaze me!! I sure hope your new jig will be helpful!

So for the next two weeks you moved on hour towards us here in Europe...if we at least could synchronise this daylight savings time thing...

Cheers,
Jan
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 06:16 AM UTC
Are you switching to daylight saving time this weekend?
Here in Sweden we will set the clocks one hour forward on the 26th of March ...

Good decision about saving work and being a little wasteful with cheap thread
Maybe you can even use the cut-offs for some other part of the rigging ....
/ Robin
timmyp
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Posted: Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 03:02 AM UTC
Well, I got to thinking about this whole ratlines business, and I decided to go to the fabric store and get a spool of black thread, as well as another spool of the cream-colored thread. And what a bargain! They were having a two-for-one sale, and then I got another 25% off on top of that! And I still had to sign the receipt, all for a measly $2.77!!

So anyway, I was using that little jig I had cut, to help save some thread when making the ratlines. However, because of the clothespins I used to hold it in place, I only effectively had about 10 slots to use for the ratlines. Plus, I was using a felt-tip marker to color the cream colored thread black. So that's when I wised up, went to the store & got some black thread, and now, I'm just going to thread the entire ratline frame with the black thread, and be done with it. Talk about a time-saving device!

And in yet another astounding... I dunno, thing?..from Heller, I was re-reading the instructions for making up the shrouds and ratlines. I noticed that it said for shroud H4 (which should be the mizzen middle shrouds), the introductory part of the instructions said to use a part b on the frame. Yet when I read the detailed instructions for shroud H4, it says to remove part b! Egad, make up my mind!

I also finished attaching the various blocks to the mizzen mast - only have one left (I think it's p187), which faces forward when attached to the mizzen mast.

Hope you all enjoy having to move the clocks forward (which, IMHO, is one of the most stupidest things we do).

Yuck! I go back to work tomorrow, after having the past week off.

Thanks for checking out the ol' blog.
timmyp
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Posted: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 - 04:57 AM UTC
Whoops! A correction or two on the previous post: that should be block P19 that goes through the mast cap - P21 hangs below the mast top, and is secured around the futtock. Also, part 419, what I think I called the "spanker gaff", is actually called the "mizzen mast horn". I see in the instructions that for those 2 parts, the ends closest to the mast are painted black - but does that mean the whole thing is painted black, or just the end, with the rest of the part painted yellow? Anyone?

I just saw a news item that air traffic controllers have lost contact with another Malaysia Airlines plane - not again!
timmyp
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Posted: Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 02:10 PM UTC
I thought I'd make a jig to match the ratline/shroud frame that Heller added to the kit. The thinking here is, instead of wasting a lot of thread stringing the ratlines across a lot of "empty space", I'd make something that would match the slots for the ratlines, but wouldn't use up so much thread. Here's cutting part of the jig:



And here's the finished part. This is the "upper" part of the jig; it's made to fit between the top and middle part of the ratline frame:



And here's how it all goes together:



So, before I got started on cutting that jig, I thought I was well on my way to finishing putting the mizzen mast together. I was all ready to put the next segment of the mizzen mast on, when I realized that I needed to make-up another set of ratlines before I could proceed. I was also ready to start adding the blocks to the mast, as per the instructions, when I noticed two things: that block P21 seemed to get attached to the mast cap, and that another set of blocks (not sure what the designations are) needed to go between the lower segment and the middle segment of the mast. So a word to the wise: before adding the mast cap, add those 2 blocks, then put the mast cap in place.

To get P21 to fit, I drilled a hole through the mast cap, and threaded P21 through the hole. I started to make the hole with my Dremel tool, but the bit "caught" and gouged a part of the mast cap - nothing too bad, just copious paint to hide the gouge. I finished the hole with my pin drill:



To try and make sense out of where all the blocks go on the mizzen mast, and which they face (fore, aft, athwart), which line goes through them, where that line starts, and where it belays, I made a rough chart for all that, so when I'm actually putting the rigging in, I don't get too flustered with having to flip through several pages of instructions. I also made a similar chart for the spanker boom & spanker gaff (not sure I have the correct names). IF anybody would like a copy, let me know, and I'll see about getting a copy to you. I'm going to make similar charts for the mizzen yards, as well as for the fore & main masts.

Would you believe it took me like almost 3 hours to cut that ratline jig? I sure hope it's worth it! And if none of the photos in this post are present, it's because Photobucket was a little more recalcitrant than normal tonight. At least, I was able to do a load of laundry while trying to make this post!!

timmyp
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Posted: Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 11:26 PM UTC
Ah, knock-out drops/Mickey Finn! Old school stuff!
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 09:31 PM UTC
Knock-out drops or "Mickey Finn"

Found of Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloral_hydrate


"Chloral hydrate is an organic compound with the formula C2H3Cl3O2. It is a colorless solid. It has limited use as a sedative and hypnotic pharmaceutical drug. It is also a useful laboratory chemical reagent and precursor. It is derived from chloral (trichloroacetaldehyde) by the addition of one equivalent of water.

It was discovered through the chlorination (halogenation) of ethanol in 1832 by Justus von Liebig in Gießen.[3][4] Its sedative properties were first published in 1869 and subsequently, because of its easy synthesis, its use was widespread.[5] It was widely used recreationally and misprescribed in the late 19th century. Chloral hydrate is soluble in both water and ethanol, readily forming concentrated solutions. A solution of chloral hydrate in ethanol called "knockout drops" was used to prepare a Mickey Finn.[6]"

The intention with stiffening the foot ropes with lacquer and then letting them dry on a template (shrouds stretched on that jig) was to get a consistent sag to all the foot ropes.
"Heavy" rope hanging between to fixed points will hang in a catenary curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary
Light thread used in modelling to represent heavy rope has the irritating habit of defying gravity (flapping all over the place). By soaking the threads in lacquer our friend gravity will have a better chance of pulling the threads downwards into a natural curve (added weight on the thread).
The dried lacquer will then enforce this curve on the thread
/ Robin
timmyp
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 09:41 PM UTC
Thanks for your words of encouragement, Jan.

It was really thrilling for me to get the mast cap & middle mast segment to fit together so well - it felt like one of those "Wow! Look what I did" moments. And such a small event!

I need to back-track a little bit, and install some rigging blocks on the lower mast segment, while the mast is still easy to move & manipulate.

Thanks again!

Tim
timmyp
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 09:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Timothy,
Nice to see that you have got the motivation back up
and thanks for the feedback on attaching sails to yards, I'll keep it in mind for the future

I fully appreciate that those ratlines are difficult to get straight and even (it's one of the things that keep me from starting my 1/96 Cutty Sark by Revell). However, when looking at them, I can't help myself from being reminded about images of the spiderwebs made by spiders while under the influence of various substances:


Would it possibly be easier if the foot ropes where stiffened first ? Dip them in clear acrylic laquer let them dry while hanging over the shrouds on that jig and glue them (or use sewing needle to pierce the shrouds) once they are dry?
Maybe this would avoid tensioning the shrouds and pulling them away from a straight line ?
A foot rope that looks to straight or sagging could be discarded before it is permanently attached to the shrouds.

/ Robin



Hello Robin,

OK, I'll bite: what's chloral hydrate?

If I had just strung the ratlines straight across the shrouds on the frame, as Heller instructs, then yeah, there wouldn't be so many...inconsistencies... in the straightness of the ratlines. But I wanted to avoid a look of them being absolutely straight (which, I do believe, will be happening on all the other shroud/ratline assemblies!).

Your suggested method of lacquering the threads and then installing them sounds good. Maybe in a future model I'll give it a try.

Thanks for sharing!

Tim
JJ1973
#345
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 05:01 PM UTC
Tim,

the amount of work you are putting into all of your 'rope work' is absolutely amazing!! I hope you manage to keep your motivation and - even with some needed and deserved breaks - eventually find your way through it!!
Even if you're experiencing a setback from time to time - you are doing an amazing job and your's already is a mighty fine looking ship!!

Cheers,
Jan
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 08:01 AM UTC
Hi Timothy,
Nice to see that you have got the motivation back up
and thanks for the feedback on attaching sails to yards, I'll keep it in mind for the future

I fully appreciate that those ratlines are difficult to get straight and even (it's one of the things that keep me from starting my 1/96 Cutty Sark by Revell). However, when looking at them, I can't help myself from being reminded about images of the spiderwebs made by spiders while under the influence of various substances:


Would it possibly be easier if the foot ropes where stiffened first ? Dip them in clear acrylic laquer let them dry while hanging over the shrouds on that jig and glue them (or use sewing needle to pierce the shrouds) once they are dry?
Maybe this would avoid tensioning the shrouds and pulling them away from a straight line ?
A foot rope that looks to straight or sagging could be discarded before it is permanently attached to the shrouds.

/ Robin
timmyp
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 08:59 PM UTC
oooh!ooooh!oooh! When I got home from work this morning, I tackled the filing job, and I'm glad I did - I managed to get the mast cap & middle segment of the mizzen mast to fit together, and then glued it all up. I have to admit, it looks hot!! And it motivates me to keep going! Next steps: more painting, and installing the blocks on the mast.