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Pyro Chinese War Junk build
BobSolo
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Posted: Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 01:05 AM UTC
That looks great, a lil surprise when you look around the back!
JJ1973
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 11:21 PM UTC
Very nice Tim!!

Looking at your build, I am glad you changed your mind and opened the after door. That will add a lot of depth and detail to your build!

Again very nice and entertaining following along your build!!

Cheers,

Jan
YellowHammer
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 11:13 AM UTC
Tim,
I have to agree it sure looks good with the door open. Not sure how to depict the rudder controls though.

BTW, I picked up the Ertl Chinese Junk kit off of ebay recently so I'm definitely going to be following your progress closely. I haven't opened the box yet but it appears to be approx. the same size as yours. The box says the kits is from the IMAI molds and is in 1/135 scale. Do you know if it could be related to the Pyro kit in any way? I'm going to try and find some suitable N scale (1/144) figures for crew and maybe some farm animals as cargo.

Looking forward to your next progress update and thanks for the lessons in oriental maritime design!
TRM5150
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 08:13 AM UTC
Liking the look of the door open Tim! Things are looking really good my friend!
TimReynaga
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Posted: Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 07:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

...one of the photos shows a window or gunport in the stern wall that might be an option to improve visibility into the stern cabin...John

...Chopping the back open would add another dimension to the model...Bob

...If you are going to add any detail in the rear cabin, would be worth opening the rear door, that sort of thing adds real depth and interest...Si



John, Bob, and Si,

I agree! Having sealed the door shut earlier in disgust at Pyro’s armament fiasco, I repented and have now opened it up again. Here’s how it looks with one of my crew and a bit of cargo (formerly a 1/72 scale 88mm ammunition case) test fitted.

They won’t be all that visible in the dark cabin once the deck is placed overhead, but the open door at the stern should add a bit of interest.

YellowHammer
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2015 - 01:59 AM UTC
I like that photo of the fishing junk as well. Notice the eyes on the bow you mentioned earlier and the rudder raised to avoid fowling the nets.
YellowHammer
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2015 - 01:55 AM UTC
Tim,
Thanks for the explanation. I always wondered about the ungainly appearance of the junks but it looks like their design was well thought out. I notice in your last photo that the lower part of the stern wall looks like it can be opened out. The notch in the bottom probably allows for raising the rudder or lowering the wall without damaging the rudder. Which makes me wonder if the Chinese followed the practice of the western ship builders in putting the captain's cabin in the stern or if the stern cabin was used for cargo and/or gunnery. Having a "hatch" at the back would sure improve cargo handling efficiency, especially with the compartmentalization inherent in their design.
Thanks again.
John
TimReynaga
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Posted: Tuesday, November 03, 2015 - 01:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

... In the photo in your last post there is a recessed area in the stern below the gunroom door, with the rudder post extending up into the recess. Is that recess a feature of junks or is there something else to be installed?

...one of the photos Bob posted shows the recessed area in the stern of the junk so it must be a feature of the craft.

John



John,

That open area at the stern caught my eye too. It is a characteristic feature of junks, one that baffled Western observers at first. In the Western tradition of nautical architecture there has always been an absolute horror of taking water aboard ship, particularly in the days before iron construction and compartmentalization. In the East, ships were built differently. Rather than the open frames and capacious interiors characteristic of Western ships, junk interiors were segmented with strong keel-to-deck bulkheads which could be made water tight. Although this made for higher weight to volume ratios and impaired access to compartments from within the vessel, there were advantages, too. The Chinese pioneered “wet stowage” where a space could be intentionally flooded to keep fish catches fresh, for example. It also made the ships more survivable if the hull was compromised.


The open stern reflected yet another advantage: greater stability in heavy seas. The open last section of the stern, backed by a solid water tight bulkhead, would quickly fill with water when hit by waves in a following sea, and it would just as quickly empty when the wave passed. The foremost few feet at the bow were also free-flooding. Together, these created temporary weights fore and aft to counteract the buoyancy swings caused by the moving sea, which had a dampening effect on the pitching of the vessel – very effective, and without any intervention by the crew! Pretty cool. I wonder if the booms stowed on the sides might have had a similar dampening effect on roll by increasing the vessel’s beam above the waterline?

The more I learn about the Chinese nautical tradition the more I respect their design accomplishments!

RussellE
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Posted: Monday, November 02, 2015 - 03:42 PM UTC
Fascinating and entertaining blog, Tim

thanks for Sharing
RedDuster
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Posted: Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 01:35 PM UTC
Hi Tim,

Coming on very well. If you are going to add any detail in the rear cabin, would be worth opening the rear door, that sort of thing adds real depth and interest.

Very interesting debate on the booms, nothing worthwhile to add to it, but enjoyed reading it.

Cheers

Si
TimReynaga
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Posted: Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 10:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Tim,
I've still been curious about those poles. I'm wondering, with the junks being used a lot as cargo vessels could the poles be used to erect a lifting rig to move cargo from ship to dock. I don't think the battens would be sturdy enough to support winching cargo from the hold. Setting three poles joined at the top would give a stury base for winching. Just a thought.
Thanks
John
...
Very nice progress, Tim!!
The idea of stacking the bamboo at an angle seems pretty good to me, I would say it is worth a try and should help the overall appearance of your Junk. Looks good!!
Cheers,
Jan
...
The poles could be for fishing and also double up as bumpstops, http://www.shmoop.com/vietnam-war/photo-fishing-junk-2.html... Could also be cargo, this ones got a lot of logs! http://visualisingchina.net/blog/2015/05/19/chinese-junks-models/ Maybe they carried a bit of everything they could fit on/in them and fished too!
Bob
...



John, Jan, and Bob -

Thanks for your ideas! Cargo lifting rig, fishing net booms, bumpers, cargo... I even thought the poles might be spare masts or battens for the ship itself... but John and Bob, I think you may have nailed it:


Bob’s pic showing fishing net booms deployed on a Vietnamese junk looks like a perfect match for the kit parts! I am now convinced that the kit poles in fact represent stowable booms used like this to support fishing nets. Thanks!
YellowHammer
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Posted: Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 08:55 AM UTC
One of the photos in the second link that Bob posted shows the recessed area in the stern of the junk so it must be a feature of the craft. I also noted that the photo of the junk on the Min river shows an anchor simply suspended from the bow. Perhaps that is common on "river" junks but I think it would still be dangerous in open seas as previously discussed. Also, one of the photos shows a window or gunport in the stern wall that might be an option to improve visibility into the stern cabin. Love looking at these old photos. Tim, whichever way you decide to go I'm enjoying the build and the history lesson.
BobSolo
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Posted: Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 03:56 AM UTC
The poles could be for fishing and also double up as bumpstops,

http://www.shmoop.com/vietnam-war/photo-fishing-junk-2.html

Could also be cargo, this ones got a lot of logs!

http://visualisingchina.net/blog/2015/05/19/chinese-junks-models/

Maybe they carried a bit of everything they could fit on/in them and fished too!

Chopping the back open would add another dimension to the model
JJ1973
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Posted: Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 09:24 PM UTC
Very nice progress, Tim!!

The idea of stacking the bamboo at an angle seems pretty good to me, I would say it is worth a try and should help the overall appearance of your Junk.

Looks good!!

Cheers,

Jan
YellowHammer
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Posted: Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 07:08 AM UTC
Hi Tim,
I've still been curious about thoe poles. I'm wondering, with the junks being used a lot as cargo vessels could the poles be used to erect a lifting rig to move cargo from ship to dock. I don't think the battens would be sturdy enough to support winching cargo from the hold. Setting three poles joined at the top would give a stury base for winching. Just a thought.

Second curiosity question. In the photo in your last post there is a recessed area in the stern below the gunroom door, with the rudder post extending up into the recess. Is that recess a feature of junks or is there something else to be installed?
Thanks
John
TimReynaga
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Posted: Friday, October 30, 2015 - 06:05 AM UTC
Hull assembly is essentially complete, I just have to do the oil stain over the base coat to bring out the “wood” grain and then I can permanently attach the aft deck. The aft cabin has some nice detail on the interior - it would have been cool to put some extra details or a figure inside, but the view through those small side apertures is pretty restricted.

Plus, that compartment will be pretty dark once the deck overhead is on.


On the other hand... if I go back and punch out that “gun door” that I glued closed before, it would be a lot easier to see whatever I might put in there...

TimReynaga
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 12:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If I might make a suggestion, you have the poles neatly stacked. In the photo, they are skewed at angles. It might help towards that "random" look.

FWIW



That's an interesting idea. I placed them per the instructions, but they are just tacked to the hull so I can move them around later on if need be. I'll see how things look once the masts/sails are on.
GrantGoodale
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 - 08:24 PM UTC
If I might make a suggestion, you have the poles neatly stacked. In the photo, they are skewed at angles. It might help towards that "random" look.

FWIW
Biggles2
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 - 08:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text


The bamboo pole parts in the kit are clearly oversized, but I wonder – should I go ahead and use them anyway, replace them, or maybe just leave them off altogether?



I've seen some bamboo, growing in the wilds of the Cambodian jungles, at least a foot in diameter. Also immensely tall. Don't know if there are different types of bamboo, or if it just keeps growing if not cut.
TimReynaga
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 - 06:06 PM UTC
BobSolo, John, Jan, Mark, and KoSprueOne – thanks for your perspectives, they are much appreciated! I agree, the absurdly oversized “bamboo poles” are absolutely unuseable as scale bamboo, and they make a mess of the ship’s lines too!

Still, I am going for a busy, “working” look on this build (I’ll probably add more boxes and other clutter to the deck too), and ugly poles slung alongside would certainly contribute to that look. Whatever those things were, photos of junks often do show them.

So I thought I’d try and salvage the kit parts by sanding the bamboo detail off and repurpose them to represent spare wooden masts (or possibly a cargo of hardwood poles or logs?) Styrene or brass rod could have worked for this too, but I think the irregularity of the sanded down bamboo parts would make for a better representation of roughly finished wooden poles.

Here’s the hull with its base coat of Tamiya XF-59 Desert Yellow.

Installed on the hull sides, I can’t say the poles/logs do anything for the ship’s lines, but at least they increase the busy-ness and add a bit of interest.
KoSprueOne
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Posted: Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 07:40 PM UTC
By keeping within the OOB build, could you just cut them shorter or would that really look too thick then?




surfsup
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Posted: Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 08:27 AM UTC
I think she would be better if you left them off.....Cheers Mark
YellowHammer
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Posted: Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 08:03 AM UTC
Hey Tim,
I've been reading a book of old sea stories, mainly British experiences. In one of the stories they mention a battle with several junks who were under way using sweeps in a constricted waterway. Could those poles have been tubes used to store the sweeps? They would be fairly handy without cluttering up the deck. Just a very long shot here. Either way you go I know its gonna look great.
John
JJ1973
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2015 - 10:15 PM UTC
Tim,

great work with all your little fixes to the kit while basically staying OOB and keeping the spirit of this nice litte old gem

And the crew-discussions - hilarious! this is another real fun to follow build log of yours!!!

As for the bamboo, honestly no idea what they are for... I would definitely not use those kit's parts, they are too oversized... some good ideas here already!

Cheers

Jan
YellowHammer
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Posted: Friday, October 23, 2015 - 02:11 AM UTC
Tim,
They look way thicker than even the masts so unless they have a particular function like cushioning between ship and pier I would either replace them with poles the size of the battens or go with Bob's recommendation of leaving them off and hanging other stuff over the rails. I like the idea of fishing or cargo netting. I believe the bumpers would probably be made of woven rope bundles kind of like those I've seen on some DUKW trucks in the water.

That picture you posted also shows all sorts of shading options when you get to the painting phase. Rigging sure looks complicated too.

Also trolling around the web a couple nights ago I noticed several asian and peasant figures in 1/72 by Zvezda that might give you some options if the girls don't work out.

As always, looking for more.
John